Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago · 6 min. reading time · visibility ~100 ·

chat Contact the author

thumb_up Relevant message Comment

Backlash of the Sexes?

I confess; I’m clearly not the sharpest tack, nor the most informed of people. The reasons are unimportant.

Joyce 🐝 Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee is about rape. Not an easy topic, nothing bright and breezy, just the awful truth of it in light of Harvey Weinstein’s recent victims. She is an impassioned writer and speaker and knows her subject well. I applaud her courage and commitment. I cannot attempt to do her work any justice here, because I wish to discuss something I’ve been watching and waiting with dread to see for several decades; the backlash against women. I don’t necessarily mean ‘feminism’ but I expect there will be some who DO take it as such. I rather think of it as female freedom. It was a comment on Joyce’s buzz that enlightened me to MGTOW.


‘‘M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t. sov·er·eign·ty: ˈsäv(ə)rən(t)ē/   Noun. Meaning: Supreme power or authority. Autonomy, independence, self-government, self-rule, self-determination, freedom. Self-governing.’’

Mission Statement: https://www.mgtow.com


As far as I understand it, their movement is a backlash against a perception that women see them being male and sugar-daddies, and are only valued for their money. I can’t even believe I’m typing this! They quote Steve Jobs; ‘"Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do." Yet he’s not of their list of MGTOW. In fact, except for Leonardo Di Carprio (which has a question mark after his name), all the men come from eras where females were considered 2nd class citizens, unintelligent, frail and only good for one thing anyway.

Under ‘sections’ then ‘posts’ like Men going the Right Way border dangerously close to every kind of offensive teaching. Yes, there are some truths in it, but the rest is intellectual perversion with some very telling use of pictures.


Backlash of the Sexes?Genders Point of View on Marriage and Dating

 

 

 

M41 45

 

Society's View Men's View Women's View


Pic credit: mgtow.com





I started reading some of the articles on their site. A two-part article by Milo Yiannopoulos Part 1 and Part 2 are profoundly disturbing and somewhat understandable, even if they’re extreme, IMHO. In Part 1 he contends that females from childhood are getting the better deal than males. Boys natural boisterousness is tamed with Ritalin (I have one niece on Ritalin – no boys), girls are somehow elevated. In college, both sexes are taught about rape, but the males tainted with emasculating bias, according to the writer.

This may or may not be true. Is it a matter of perspective? He continues: 

 

‘Women today are schooled in victimhood, taught to be aggressively vulnerable and convinced that the slightest of perceived infractions, approaches or clumsy misunderstandings represents “assault,” “abuse” or “harassment.” That may work in the safe confines of campus, where men can have their academic careers destroyed on the mere say-so of a female student.’ ‘But academics such as [Academic and Social Critic)] Camille Paglia have been warning for years that “rape drives” on campus put women at greater risk, if anything. But, according to Paglia, when that women goes out into the real world without the safety net of college rape committees, she is left totally unprepared for the sometimes violent reality of male sexuality. And the panics and fear-mongering are serving men even more poorly. All in all, education is becoming a miserable experience for boys.’


Yiannopoulos starts his article with a series of quotes from other men:


“My generation of boys is f**ked.”, says Rupert, a young German video game enthusiast I’ve been getting to know over the past few months. “Marriage is dead. Divorce means you’re screwed for life. Women have given up on monogamy, which makes them uninteresting to us for any serious relationship or raising a family. That’s just the way it is. Even if we take the risk, chances are the kids won’t be ours. In France, we even have to pay for the kids a wife has through adulterous affairs.''


His take on masculinity smacks of spurned? *
Yiannopoulos continues:



Never before in history have relations between the sexes been so fraught with anxiety, animosity and misunderstanding. To radical feminists, who have been the driving force behind many tectonic societal shifts in recent decades, that’s a sign of success: they want to tear down the institutions and power structures that underpin society, never mind the fall-out. Nihilistic destruction is part of their road map.’
‘You can hardly blame them. Cruelly derided as man-children and crybabies for objecting to absurdly unfair conditions in college, bars, clubs and beyond, men are damned if they do and damned if they don’t: ridiculed as basement-dwellers for avoiding aggressive, demanding women with unrealistic expectations, or called rapists and misogynists merely for expressing sexual interest.'

c6f8bd65.jpgPic credit Mr Z: 'Real Love'

It gets better; in Part 2 Yiannopoulos quotes Daryush Valizadeh, who goes by the pen name Roosh V as saying:


‘Part of the problem is unrealistic female expectations, says Valizadeh. “Getting laid with attractive women has become extremely hard for average men. Women today of average or even below average quality desire an elite man with above-average looks, muscles, intelligence, and confidence.’
‘“It’s also damaging that the attractiveness of women is rapidly declining, mainly due to the obesity epidemic. No matter what members of the ‘fat acceptance’ movement say, men have an innate need for fit women.  What happens is the few attractive girls left get unimaginable amounts of attention.”

Yiannopoulos admits Valizadeh has some controversial views on the state of modern womanhood. Yet he also admits to being gay *….does that have a bearing or not: you decide. In my mind, sexual orientation is something you are born with in the main.

About this author’s Post 1, ‘over 300,000 readers have shared it on Facebook. 16,500 readers left comments. Over 500 men wrote to me privately to express their gratitude and support, from every continent…’


Like all articles, the comments are very telling. A lot of men are angry, and I get it to an extent. I certainly noticed while living in the States that men were struggling with the ‘new man’ thing and it impacted their confidence. I could go into overdrive with that, but the shortest point is that, because women were ‘allowed’ to be more assertive and professional, men were left at sea to their own identity; they didn’t know how to respond to that. But most did overcome – even in the most ultra conservative nation, America. What I see coming up regularly in this sort of speak, is money.

One commenter wrote:


‘Tell it like it is in a happy tone and ignore the bitter women who don't laugh along, or better yet, make fun of them for being bitter with what you're saying. Women only listen to their emotions, and if they're having a laugh or two with what you're saying, the contents of your sentences won't even register in their minds.
Besides, who cares what women think? Tell them to f*ck off if you're not the in the social mood -- nothing important will be lost.'

I am vehemently against any extremist thinking. However, that does NOT make me pro-feminist nor anti-male. Because I see this anger being a potential for one of our greatest and most damaging battles, it’s more pro-children…the potential ‘collateral damage’.

What is so profoundly worrying about this is the thinking that all women are rabid feminists and all males are being systematically crushed by all women. That’s dangerous and just plum sad. Okay, so there are always some, we all know that. Young women can be terrible teases, I know that. But they always were. And, truth be told, some men can be brutes. Yet that is the dance we so enjoy for the most part. It is the way of things.

But what I find so enormously disturbing is the concept of separation of the sexes as MGTOW purports. Could this even have a chance in hell of staying ‘healthy’? Not to me; surely there will be a backlash that is far more violent than we’ve seen to date.

Both sexes are responsible for our world. Before ‘women’s lib’ things were pretty bad for women; I cannot state that forcefully enough. There have been some extreme feminists that have been hell-bent on emasculating men but some does in no way, mean all.

My boys are 32 and 33, both happily married to wonderful and strong women and both enjoying fatherhood for the first time. Both educated Stateside, sex-ed classes included. Jilted, tried, succeeded, jilted etc. That’s normal. I’ve discussed this whole thing with my husband, who’s equally alarmed; he’s helped me when I got stuck in some of the ‘why’s’ and I respect his opinion, clearly. Yes, I give him hell about his ‘risk-taking’; he returns the same for my ‘nagging.’ But we’ve been together 40 years, and we do it the good old fashioned way, with humor. We enjoy our bents…vive la difference!

So alarmed am I right now, because I can bet your genitalia that there are a lot of men that don’t agree with MGTOW. The same men that don’t agree with extreme anything. I don’t. Extremes are just that; they rarely end well. They too can see how badly this could go. Sooner or later a natural loneliness will lead to wanting, but the taint will color it into coveting. What of all the children these MGTOW haven’t sired, will they too become endangered?

And there I was worried about World War 3…….












thumb_up Relevant message Comment
Comments
Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #121

#143
I know your mother was brutal to you, as was your sister. Where was your father in this? Is there any woman you respect? More importantly, is there any woman worthy of revealing her face? What say you Nicole Chardenet; I am sad.....

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #120

#142
#143 I KNOW you read my last buzz: https://www.bebee.com/producer/@lisa-vanderburg/what-s-behind-the-door Brian McKenzie You said nothing. Why? I think it's because there's a bit o' heart still left there? I also KNOW you hurt, and that's why (I suspect) you did NOT comment on it. It's like learning Latin: I hurt, you hurt, we hurt, they hurt etc. It's not an excuse worthy of your cause. #142 As Nicole rightly says, there are devout reasons women wear what they do, but it is so far from ensnaring the likes of a man who only wants her as a goat; that's my interpretation.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #119

#141
First, apologise Nicole Chardenet, for my tardiness. I had a bit of a time with my PD hubby & his condition (not quite as bad as he had it however). I must say first say that if being a feminist means what I know YOU mean, Nicole - equal rights for equal work - that is who I am. It gets muddied.....in our 'lingo' these days. And you're right; some women wearing head-gear are protecting themselves - can't blame them! However, I am curious at #140 Brian's answer here. Is he (are you, Brian?) talking of veiled girlfriends or skin-faced?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #118

#136
Looking at his link Nicole Chardenet's now supporting hijab-wearing feminists (or is it just hibab-wearing females? I don't think he'll answer the question; he's careful enough not to answer anything directly to a comment.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #117

#131
...hate to ask Brian McKenzie, but does women wearing Burkas help your cause? That's a serious question, BTW. I don't wish you harm - I wish to understand you!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #116

#129
You are so right, Nicole Chardenet's will continue to say the more we complain, the better he does fiscally - ha! In Kyrzbekistan. Should we ask for a stipend seeing as you and I are contributing to his cause? :)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #115

A couple of months later...#MeToo. Let's listen to Nicole Chardenet and all. https://www.bebee.com/producer/@nicole-chardenet/sharp-metoo-and-the-feminist-elephant-in-the-room

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #114

#115
Great points, savvy wonderfulness Louise Smith. Of course you're right; pay should be equal, women raising kids should be payed equally. Yet, IMHO (took me AGES to work that out!), our sexes discourse is not a fiscal problem. I read some time back; in the US, one in four males between the age of 20 and 40 are or have been incarcerated. By this, I'd love to explore our governmental concept of control-of-sexes. As an American and (ex) American employer, I am appalled at these figures. I was educated in the UK, so I'm a mutt. When Americans used to ask me why the Brits don't [generally] carry weapons, I'd say 'they'd all be dead in 3 days'. The point I'm trying to make is that the US penal system is way too brutal, which means for the MEN. The UK system is way too soft. Most grievous offenders are male because they're risk-takers. The FLA police wanted me to pack. I said 'hell no - you'd be first, he'd be second.....' I wonder how much our own governments' inability to coerce their people are to blame for this split in sexes?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #113

#109
Completely agree Harvey Lloyd's stats!). If I may refer to David Navarro L\u00f3pez wonderful buzz that picks up from here, you'll see some of my thoughts on the big-ass why! https://www.bebee.com/producer/@david-navarro-lopez/backlash-of-the-sexes-reloaded

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #112

#107
Nah...not me, sweetie! I would be Boo from Monster's Inc Harvey Lloyd. Now, she's got power!! :)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #111

#106
I get no notifications.....no matter how I try :) Yup, drink n' grab; eons of tradition..........

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #110

#105
What Louise Smith....housewives/mothers get PAID????????

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #109

#96
Actually, Pyrex is better than a lance; I know, I severed 2 tendons with it! SORRY ALL! T'WAS MOVING. Back now....I'll try and catch up. Thanks David Navarro L\u00f3pez for your outstanding buzz!

David Navarro López

David Navarro López

3 years ago #108

Here you have your answer, dear Lisa. Sorry to have taken so much time https://www.bebee.com/producer/@david-navarro-lopez/backlash-of-the-sexes-reloaded

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #107

#115
SHM can only exist once we stop looking at various labels and begin to understand that each human is unique and seeks a different path in life. Again this is why i offered up the link. Not the only method by any means but a method of looking at the employment opportunities that display who should advance, and where within a scale a person should reside. This discussion is fascinating as we explore objectivity within a subjective situation. Can Sue and her boss Ellen really be objective within this discussion. (Ellen with her bosses, goals and personal needs when compared to Sue’s) With this paradigm always in play, the only way to reach objectivity, is to have the government establsih pay scales and everyone to submit to them. Until then it will always be subjective. I would like to qualify this thread. There are companies and leaders who from an objective position (Or an attempt) who do pay equal positions less based on bias. Be it cultural, gender or political party:). You know from this point forward if we meet a Sue in our immediate future we will have some subjective thoughts:)

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #106

#115
Really great questions but it is difficult to answer them individually without looking at “sue” collectively. My apologies, my paradigm is education and dint mean to limit the discussion to that profession. Should Sue make the same pay? Many people dont have the time and skill...8 step program. The link was presented not as a program but rather a way to look at pay. Those who do not wish to stretch for reasons of their own vs those who do vs those who feel every thing is a panic decision. Here we have three areas that could describe three different humans with exactly the same education. Given a scale of $5-10 per hour how would pay these three people with the same education. The link was merely to describe that education may be equal but peoples goals are not. Interestingly you brought up intellect, social skills and time as parameters. Does this not add parameters to the discussion of pay? Equality is relative to many variables on each side of the issue. I am not sure if i was paid less than women, i did not get several promotions as women’s were chosen at that time. But i made what i input based on the industry and job description. You are correct not many males in our profession.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #105

#113
Yes humans are more than just a paycheck but a paycheck is also necessary. Sue may want the job she studied for after uni in a full time position while she is single with responsibility only for herself Why should she get paid less? SHM can only exist if they have a form of income but they don't get paid for looking after children. Those who do are lucky, plan, have a rich partner or backer and or are driven but sometimes people don't have a choice so what happens then? Many women are teachers simply because it fits in with having children. Not many men are teachers ? Some people do not have the intellect, the luxury of time or the social skills to use the 8 Step Program (which is very good BTW) So what happens then? To me it's not about media or competition or negative comparison It's a practical issue It's about fairness, equity and recognition of the same skills deserve the same paycheck. If it's not quantified it's not equitable. "When we pose questions in general, about a gender then all we can do is go to that which is observable and measurable. " But I agree with you that humans have a name and a unique paradigm this can occur both at work and outside work Would you accept less pay than a woman for doing the same job?

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #104

#110
When we pose questions in general, about a gender then all we can do is go to that which is observable and measurable. But as humans we have a name and a unique paradigm. Each brings diversity that should be celebrated and intergrated. With uniqueness comes choice. With choice comes comparison ......or defined need. A second area of consideration in responsibility/time https://www.peoplealchemy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Eight-steps-to-effective-delegation-Paul-Matthews-BBF-March-2017.pdf What if we used this matrix to establsih earnings. All things being equal would or should a person be paid more or less within the drone zone Vs the stretch zone? The drone zone for me is derogatory in nature. When people/humans place their major responsibilities outside of work they may appear to be a “drone” when in reality they realize that stretching would take time away from something else. When we seek, do we consider what the world is, or is offering or do we define our need and go get what we want. How we ask and answer this question can make a huge difference in satisfaction. By defining our need and seeking, then we can leave the media driven comparison/competition on the screen and enjoy the house we build.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #103

#110
Your question is valid @Louise Smith. But would suggest that is not the human more than just a paycheck? When a person, let’s say Sue wants a job. Is Sue just a job description? No Sue is a friend, maybe a wife, a mother, a daughter and more importantly Sue wants to shape her time her way. What level of responsibility/time Sue is willing to give an employer is also an important factor in considering earnings. I have seen PHD folks take a job that pays half the normal earnings because they didnt want the responsibility, they wanted time outside of work. We work to support something outside of work. So how Sue sees this outside matrix will and is a part of her choice in seeking employment. So to look at a spreadsheet and discuss something reduces Sue to just another employee/SSN. Each human that seeks employment has reasons for selecting the job the select. I want to work with them on their purpose. Many of our teachers are working to transfer from another field. They take less money as we fund and mentor them through the licensing process. Paid leave for clinical, class or other related requirements for licensure are a part of the process. Some people with the same title/education who are licesed make more money. I cant answer your question unless we describe Sue’s goals and roles that she would like to accomplish both proffesional and personally.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #102

https://www.payscale.com/mypayscale.aspx?pid=add82b6c-0fb9-4c32-a7c0-836038e7795e&wizardid=5&s=0&ft=1 I tried to generate a report for pay and jobs using the data from #105 Results above

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #101

Harvey Lloyd http://tiperosity.com/tips/7338

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #100

#109
Thanks for your comment Harvey Lloyd How would you establish the worth of eg SHM so that it is clear that they are not valued when compared to other employees job's?

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #99

#105
I don’t disagree humanity wants to quantify its existence and money is one way. But money also induces competition an open argument that is only served by the next competition. I can not compete with women nor she with me. But I can compliment here and she me. Is the electrician better than the plumber? Or do they complement each other in the building process? It is not my wish to be argumentative but would prefer to debate the points with out competitive boundaries. We are all equal under the human classification. We are complementary within the paradigm of social existence.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #98

#107
Great selections in both the values they held were greater than the gender they were and social boundaries of the gender Secretly I enjoyed the movie several times. I always invited a grandchild so it appeared they were watching. (Moulon)

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #97

#82
Harvey Lloyd - it would have to be either Mulan or Zena Warrior Princess... both strong female characters who fought to defend the vulnerable.

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #96

#91
Geoff Hudson-Searle for some reason I am not getting all my notifications - hence the late reply! I agree completely with you in that the human body is a temple and at the very least people should respect each other and their space. Whilst I used to take the underground to work in the mornings, in the evenings I would walk down from the top of Tottenham Court Road to Green Park and get the bus home from there. Groping etc. etc. seemed to be a lot more prevalent in the afternoons/evenings than the mornings. Presumably due to a quick visit to the pub for some 'courage' by the perpetrators.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #95

#89
"Can we really do this. Bring a mothers love to a financial number? Mothers, from a son's perspective provide something that money cannot buy. Also to reduce love to $ i believe only qauntifies the argument of sexisium. Women and their love of children is something men will never understand. I don't think we should quantify women in such terms, they are to be held in awe with their potential for great love and compassion." No man can place a price on a women. She is a gift that would be detrimental to our existence to treat any less. I get scared when we take that which is sacred in humanity and reduce it to $. Dollars can be debated, challenged and separate us from our existence. Humanity as a collective is greater than what it creates. This creation could not happen without the female counterpart." This is not what I wrote it for I AGREE with you totally BUT as a theoretical exercise it makes it very clear that stay at home mums/ mothers/grandmothers are not given the value they deserve 2016 The base salary for a stay-at-home mom in 2016 was $48,509 -- for a 40-hour work week. A stay-at-home mom's overtime hours equate to about 52 hours, which averages out to be $94,593. This totals to $143,102. The research also takes a look at pay for a mother who works outside the home. This comes to a total of $90,223. (Base salary averaged at $52,685 and overtime averaged at $37,538.) Compare this to the following Median Base Salary USD 2017 Attourney $94,695 Nuclear Engineer $94,852 Nurse Practitioner $104,144 Architect $105,303 R & D Manager $111,905 Pharmacist $125,847 Physician $187,876 https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Highest-Paying-Jobs-LST_KQ0,19.htm AND we haven't even got to the GENDER PAY GAP Guess which Gender gets paid less ? https://www.glassdoor.com/research/studies/gender-pay-gap/

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#103
thank you Louise Smith. I only enjoyed the fragrance of the rosy comments. I felt it is worthy to have the roses in one bundle. You are so considerate my friend. It is for one reason. You are not less than what you describe me. Thank you again.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #93

#101
Such a lovely manner you have Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee All the better to see/ read you with ?

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #92

#88
Yes I didn't think Robin Hood was quite you ? A man in tights ? Although he had his own petard.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

The exchange of comments are so rich and nourishing. May be Lisa Vanderburg would consider summarizing them in a buzz.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #90

#91
My mouse is fried, well worth it Geoff Hudson-Searle! Do you think the onus of the buzz is related? I do. Have you ever read the book 'Blindness'? Almost no punctuation so it's almost a one-stop shop. Very where we are...... Sorry loves (the remainder of commenters), gotta feed the beast. Oh...and my husband! :) Back later....

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #89

#95
Thank you it was intended to place the human race above its financial value. As grandma always said no brinks trucks at a funeral.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #88

#90
Hey, Jordan Sands,,,there's no markers here - welcome! I agree...

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #87

#92
Be careful the lance is a complex weapon of secretive powers. Many try to wield its power but come up short:)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #86

#89
THIS is singularly the best comment, the most rounded take I've seen; above all Harvey Lloyd! I applaud you, scales and al!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #85

#87
In some ways I agree , dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! But I have to tread lightly; not for fear, but for respect of those men (you too!) that have not only transitioned well but have embraced GOOD women for what they are!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #84

#86
Hey my dude Harvey Lloyd, laughter is fabulous medicine! I don't look at mirrors, because there's always a hairy beast behind me :)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #83

#82
well....Harvey Lloyd - your lance. Always wanted one....

Geoff Hudson-Searle

Geoff Hudson-Searle

3 years ago #82

#68
Claire L Cardwell Thank you for your comments, from the research and focus group work I have seen particularly from people who travel the London underground its not just women who are being harassed or groped, men are also victims, I guess if you put a 1000 people in a London underground train like sardines, and where hormones take over from conversation, illicit behavior is likely to increase in the eyes of even the most innocent of individuals. I still strongly believe that the human body is a temple and reserved for love, illicit, immoral behavior is inexcusable in any situation.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #81

#83
Can we really do this. Bring a mothers love to a financial number? Mothers, from a son's perspective provide something that money cannot buy. Also to reduce love to $ i believe only qauntifies the argument of sexisium. Women and their love of children is something men will never understand. I don't think we should quantify women in such terms, they are to be held in awe with their potential for great love and compassion. No man can place a price on a women. She is a gift that would be detrimental to our existence to treat any less. I get scared when we take that which is sacred in humanity and reduce it to $. Dollars can be debated, challenged and separate us from our existence. Humanity as a collective is greater than what it creates. This creation could not happen without the female counterpart.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #80

#84
A wise choice of wisdom indeed. May excalibur guide you in the wisdom you aspire. My only question is if i was in distress would you save me from the evil dragon?:}

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#77
this is in spite of the fact that women out skill men. Women have the drive to prove their quality and the passion for what they do.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #78

#78
Ah yes the armor struggled to hold up that which gravity has easily sought to pull. My armor gave up a few years ago. If it's not sagging hair is growing out of it. I tell my wife each day i must suffer through the mirror routine each morning, while others must endure for the whole day what i see once. I am glad i brought a smile, i find humor is some good medicine even within such an important topic as you had the courage to bring forward. Sorry off to get the armor polished and lifted.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#79
thank you Claire L Cardwell

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #76

#82
King Arthur

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #75

#71
IN 2011 results indicate that stay-at-home moms would earn a base salary of $36,968 plus $78,464 in overtime, totaling $115,432 May 2, 2011 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/05/02/why-stay-at-home-moms-should-earn-a-115000-salary/#7895dcab75f4 IN 2017 What would the salary be?

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #74

#70
If that question came from anyone else i would have a quick answer, but you being you i sense some trickery here. Dare i say Snow White or maybe Hansel and Gretel, where Gretel saved her imprisoned brother. Political correctness is such a challenging feat for a knight in shining armor. I like them all. Especially when i watch them with grandchildren. If given only one choice of fairy tale character to be, what say yee? Choose wisely now:)

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #73

I agree with you both completely Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange, Brand Ambassador @beBee that men can not claim a disadvantage after 1000s of years of abuse, control and inequality.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #72

That's for the shares everyone!! Love and LAUGHTER...still the best medicine!

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #71

#65
Well said Ali Anani ! "No bird shall fly if one wing is sided"

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #70

#67
LMAO, Harvey Lloyd!! You contributions have been so valued, I thank you from the bottom of my witch's broom. You know, I always wanted to know how it felt to grow a beard and 'tash...such a fascinating wonder! Just to reward you with laugh, I went to shave my armpits last year (it's never warm enough in this country to be bare-armed, and had my shower. After borrowing the mirror from my husband who LOVES his image '...I'm STILL so handsome!' he says, I checked. I had missed what hair was there - it had dropped two inches, along with pretty much everything else :) Be well, fair Knight!

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #69

Part two :- It's a fact that women are paid around 30% less for doing the same job as a man - irrespective of whether they have taken maternity leave or not. I was also totally astounded to learn a while back that in Switzerland women did not get the vote until 1971 and not until 1976 in Portugal. Well behind other countries such as Iran & Morocco (1963), China (1949) which are generally considered less liberal in their attitudes towards women. I've just read a couple of other disturbing articles - you can now buy a sex robot with resistance settings.... https://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/sex-robots-with-resistance-setting-let-men-simulate-rape-and-should-be-banned-say-campaigners-36156516.html Also that women seeking abortion in Arkansas need the consent of the male partner - even if they were raped or in an abusive relationship....

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #68

#49
Males should not be in control of decisions related to females bodies. They, esp celibate males, have a very limited idea of the trauma often lifelong these decsions/laws cause females not just physical (FGM) but emotional (guilt, shame, grief). I counselled a woman trying for her first child who had 2 miscarriages in 2 years and didn't know if she could have a full term child. She felt she was at fault. Her pain was palpable. It was lasting. It was exhausting. Everyone else had an opinion of what she should do ! Her anxiety & depression were heightened when she needed to be calm & relaxed to conceive. She needed peace & encouragement.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#72
you shall never need to quak dear Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #66

#66
'I don't believe that after girls & women have been exposed to 1000s of years of abuse, control & inequality, boys & men can claim disadvantage.' In a nut-shell, my brass-balled Louise Smith!

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #65

Lisa Vanderburg - sorry it's taken me a couple of days to comment! I've just re-read your article and did a little digging - Mr Valizadeh also known as Roosh V is pro-rape in addition to everything else you mentioned above. He once argued that Rape should be legal if it's done on private property.... Not only that he hates gays, trans people and migrants! http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/rooshv-manchester-pro-rape-meeting-10834636 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/2/roosh-v-pro-rape-activist-organizes-covert-meeting/ It's so sad that this man managed to get so much attention for all the hate he spews. The majority of people just want to live peaceably side by side, but the backlash against women seems to be on the rise. To be continued...

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #64

#65
#64 Lovely Louise Smith left the building, I'd be quaking in me boots! :)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #63

#61
Nurturing, caring, family. Ironic that this huge area of life is taken for granted and no degree necessary Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange, Brand Ambassador @beBee. I've seen and applaud males who are also very good in this role, and it has to be harder for them as they don't always start off on the same footing as...er..me, for example. The fact that I was deemed useless for anything other than breeding really helped me find my calling :) I agree - can't abide rabid feminists either. We must learn to meet in the middle with genteel respect as you say, Deb!

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #62

#67
Harvey Lloyd What's your favourite fairy tale ?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #61

#58
#59 #60 That's me...the worry-wart :) Thank you Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange, Brand Ambassador @beBee, you bring some scars to the table that need to be shown, because this group are using their 'scars' as reason. It's more than freakin' sad.

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

3 years ago #60

#16
Geoff Hudson-Searle even in my late 40's I still get called names, get funny looks or in general feel physically threatened by men - (now these men are in the minority - perhaps 1-2% of the men I meet in passing every day). I am STILL regularly told not to worry my pretty head about things and an old friend in London (who I thought was pretty liberal) recently told me that women belong barefoot, pregnant and in the Kitchen! (and no he wasn't joking...). Your news that frotteurism is on the rise astounds me, although in my days of commuting in London it wasn't uncommon either. I simply can not understand why people persist in gender stereotyping and harassment of those who are different or weaker and smaller - it's bullying pure and simple.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #59

#66
My testosterone has been engaged fully now. I felt the need to groan, scratch my hairy parts and maybe belch a few times. I am now back from slaying the dragon having saved the village. I enjoyed your comments and thoughts. I do believe that on each end of the spectrum the microphone is handed to the few. We are all humans serving each other in our unique way. Gender should not matter but be observed for its awesome diversity. You make me laugh and feel a little neanderthal. I must now depart the damsel in distress call just came and i most mount my noble steed. Maybe too much testosterone:)

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #58

Deb\ud83d\udc1d Lange, Brand Ambassador @beBee I love your comments #58 - #61 Equality is an elusive reality. Even today. I admire all those women who have paved the way. Unfortunately anything that becomes reactionary, militant and dogmatic attracts negative backlash. This site is an example http://therightsofman.typepad.co.uk/the_rights_of_man/2007/06/the-ideology-of.html I taught High School for decades. It is well known in Education that boys get 8 times more teacher attention than girls in the classroom. http://davidsortino.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10161/when-boys-get-more-classroom-attention-than-girls/ Girls were just beginning to get equal treatment and out perform boys. How marvellous considering the teacher attention mismatch that girls obviously overcame. SO then we had to have the "what about the boys" movement claiming boys were disadvantaged. This only occurred because girls & women were doing better. To me this was a convenient political promotion for someone in the Ed Department. I don't believe that after girls & women have been exposed to 1000s of years of abuse, control & inequality, boys & men can claim disadvantage. “Simply put feminism is the theory of the political, economic and social equality of the sexes. If that’s what a feminist is – who wouldn’t want to be called that?" https://www.progressivewomensleadership.com/a-brief-history-the-three-waves-of-feminism/

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#64
I am watching closely Louise Smith. I want societies to be like a bird with two wings. No bird shall fly if one wing is sided.

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #56

#38
Have another look Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee We are just warming up !

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #55

#58
Yes I laughed at that !

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #54

#59
You did a GREAT job !

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #53

#55
There's the rub my friend, eh? Perhaps if we had a pick of candidates of intelligent substance instead bigger wallets and greasy palms.......

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #52

#54
Absolutely Louise Smith, this 'movement' is not of sufficient numbers to form a real threat as yet. And yes, in the main, it's borne of abuse and terror to these individuals in their childhood. I'm one, but I'm not going to start a movement against men; I have one who I need to attend to because he can't. That is my choice; my duty is a choice. My love is MY choice., that I could easily have just walked away from. I too feel sorrow for the little boys that have joined the ranks of MGTOW; but do they know WHO's firing up their fury? All that energy has to go somewhere?

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #51

#49
As long as we, women, social advocates, the law, society, don't allow them, we won't go backwards who ever the US president is !

Louise Smith

Louise Smith

3 years ago #50

"I am vehemently against any extremist thinking. However, that does NOT make me pro-feminist nor anti-male. Because I see this anger being a potential for one of our greatest and most damaging battles, it’s more pro-children…the potential ‘collateral damage’." Lisa Vanderburg I think the extremes are not representative of the general population even in numbers. They are often people who have endured awful situations and traumatic events. They lash out because they are hurt & angry. This thinking is for them - self protection. They are often too easy going with not strong enough boundaries. As a result they often get taken advantage of or treated badly. They may not have the emotional resources, strength, role models or support to deal with these situations past present & future in a non reactive manner. I feel for them. It is not a great way to live.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#51
You are very considerate and I learn a lot from you Lisa Vanderburg. It is connections with people of your caliber that gives life a meaning.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #48

Yup....scares the crap out of me Lisa \ud83d\udc1d Gallagher. I confess to being Christian - warts and all. I get stuck or the Roe v Wade thing every election, but ultimately it is the woman's choice and Republicans have been voted in how many times since by the Christian right to do...what. So it clearly has nothing to do with politics! These MGTOW claim they have to pay for children they have not sired...have they heard of DNA testing? You called it right, dear lady: control is the name of the game. Thanks for sharing, tweeting etc!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #47

#47
#48 That is exactly why you are so respected by women Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee, and by males too! Because you listen to what the person is saying before you come back with a measured, truthful response...even if you don't agree, you with take the time to voice 'the why' that does not offend the listener. It's a hard-earned gift you have - most of us can't be bothered with honing their skill sets. But in truth it's worth the time; it's the very reason communications break down. Certainly with the MGTOW lot, I don't think there would be any reasoning with them if they're so enraged as to basically castrate themselves?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #46

#46
For some reason, I an getting NO notifications of comments via Bebee either here on to my email Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee?? Sorry Lisa \ud83d\udc1d Gallagher! I couldn't agree more...this is pure hate

Lisa Gallagher

Lisa Gallagher

3 years ago #45

Lisa Vanderburg, I shared your buzz earlier on beBee and Twitter. I just shared a link on Twitter to the comments section you posted . Women need to become more informed and so do men that respect women for that matter. They want to take away birth control, they've gone as far as to say any female who has an abortion no matter how early on, well...it should be a crime and they should go to jail. They want to make women pay more for maternity care (in other words) it would be an optional addition for HC Insurance and who knows what else they have up their sleeves. Just to be clear, I'm not stating whether I'm pro or anti abortion, just stating a fact above. They want to take us back to the dark ages. So, I guess there is a bit of a feminist that lives inside of me. Whats next, women who are raped will be treated like criminals because they asked for it? That's the mindset of these freaking creeps.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#45
When I see here beBee women such as you, Sara Jacobovici, 🐝 Fatima G. Williams, Jean L. Serio CPC, CeMA, Susan 🐝 Botello, Liesbeth Leysen, MSc. Brand Ambassador beBee, Inc.,and Lisa 🐝 Gallagher and many more then how would I not acknowledge women? My only hope is the reverse is true.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#45
If we all should remember it was a lady who delivered every one of us we should be grateful to every woman dear Lisa Vanderburg. I wrote once that we noticed while adults my brothers and I my mother didn't take meet a. It turned out that she refrained from taking meet for fear one of her kids would have desired the same piece of meet. Who would make such sacrifices? Not men.

Lisa Gallagher

Lisa Gallagher

3 years ago #42

#44
Wow Lisa, I just read the comments which confirm, not only is Bannon a woman hater, so are those who adore Trump... and then I read, Trump "unleashed" Bannon. Hmm, if there's a Satan, Bannon is that evil entity. Those comments made me want to puke. Any woman who votes for Trump or shall I say, stands up for him has lost any respect I might have had for her. They want to take away women's rights and that's not made up, a person just has to read in order to understand what their agenda is.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #41

#38
Ah, my friend Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee; just seeing you drops my BP! I think a lot of (even the corporate) women are fearful of this! Women can be hard-assed, by that doesn't make them all male-crushing haters, as this site contends. Thank God for real men that will stand against such hate - like you, Ali!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #40

#40
you know Lisa \ud83d\udc1d Gallagher, I hadn't notice about Steve Bannon (kept falling off my desk chair in disbelief!) yet, here he is: https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/the-art-of-the-deal/ My boys are equally outraged at this - both working up in the corporate world. It's accepted that jerks (of either sex) are part of the package - all our work work has those overly-zealous and uneducated in the art of communication types; it's a given. No worries about being late - happy as hell to see you though! Thanks Lisa!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #39

#41
Ironical Lyon Brave, eh? I think this is most definitely a 1st world madness, and I suspect it's unique to the US and Australia?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #38

#39
Thanks Robert Cormack for your educated and thoughtful contributions here. I guess it's the absolute division MGTOW espouses with such fierce nastiness and anger that makes my blood runs cold. Yes, men have had to adapt to changing attitudes, competition from females in the work place. I'm sure there are women that will/do misuse their position. But there's no mention whatsoever of the attitude by men towards women before the great wars. Sticks do not worry me, it's stuff like this: ''No means yes. Yes means anal'' - DTrojan, or ''A woman giving advice is tantamount to holding the oven doors open at Auschwitz.'' - M G-Tower. Both and a lot worse from: https://www.mgtow.com/quotes/ All the quotes in italic come from the MGTOW site, except for maybe three words in my text. So the Steve Jobs was their mistake. It's not sticks I worry about, it's rape, hammers, and recruited or dead children. I was not worried about that before I'd see such a movement.

Lyon Brave

Lyon Brave

3 years ago #37

ugghhh.... victim hood is not cool nor is being unable to make your own way in this world i hooe education saves the day but it seems my conversations witg young women from third world countries is always can you find me a husband and not a job

Lisa Gallagher

Lisa Gallagher

3 years ago #36

Wow! I'm not a feminist either and after reading this along with Milo Y's article, I was quite disturbed. It appears the mindset of both females and males are skewed within a certain sector of our society. I did not raise my daughter to be a victim, I raised her to be aware, with self respect and taught her how to defend herself if she ever found herself in a bad situation. I also taught her to respect both sexes if they deserved respect. Oh, sorry I'm just replying now but I'm playing a lot of catch up because we had inlaws staying here from Az and I also had to help my husband get ready to leave for Colorado the day after my inlaws left. We then headed to the Buffalo Airport. So, I'm just now trying to get back into the swing of things. It's been crazy busy since Mid-September. I agree, both sexes are responsible for this world and it sounds like the younger generation within that subgroup ( I hope it's a subgroup) need to be much better educated. Reading that males up to age 30 would rather play video games etc.. rather than have sex, women have unrealistic expectations, more boys are are ritalin and more. The bottom line, this sounds very bitter in general (The article on MGTO) and did you notice it was originally published on Breitbart??? That is very telling. Steve Bannon's baby. He's a woman hater. I can agree, women and men do have a hard time understanding each other at times, we communicate differently but that doesn't mean we disrespect the other. This is extremely disturbing. Thanks Lisa Vanderburg for bringing light to this.

Robert Cormack

Robert Cormack

3 years ago #35

All interesting points, Lisa Vanderburg. I'll just correct you on one: Your quote "The only ones for me..." is Jack Kerouac, not Steve Jobs. The advertising agency that did the "Think Different" campaign was Chiat/Day out of Los Angeles. They might have used a variation of Kerouac's quote (I've been using it for years). As to the points you made in your article itself, the greatest danger we face now isn't The Battle of the Sexes. You could say we're in the period between wars (like WW1 and WW2). As Margaret McMillan pointed out in her book, there was essentially only one war with so much anger in between (reparations, territorial boundaries, etc), the next war (or rekindling) was inevitable. The Battle of the Sexes is in the recrimination stage. Women have gained position, they've gained a voice and they gained an attitude. They said they would bring "a kinder world," but that hasn't happened. The viciousness of divorce, charges of sexual assault, and the sheer anger out there today will split the sexes further. As Einstein said, "The next war could be fought with sticks." That might be the case of The Battle of the Sexes, too. So much damage, so much anger, so much generalization and victimization. My last years in business (advertising), I saw the worst of it. If someone wanted you fired, all they had to do was tell management you made an inappropriate comment. Things are going to get much worse, even if there are happy families out there like yours. I'm sure there are lots of happy families, but there are also a lot of very unhappy ones.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

#37
with all honesty I am rather disppointed with the participation of women in these discussions. I hope to see more involvement tomorrow by them. You had the courage and will to poublish this authorative buzz my dear Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #33

#35
Most grateful my friend Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee. It's fascinating the courage of good men who have contributed here; equally fascinating is the female voice: only two. Is it fear of retribution or fear or intelligent war-fare (here)? Tricky....I doubt most women have nothing to say, but in many ways, I'm buoyed by the men showing their enormous flex of rightly testosterone intelligent muscle! It's more of a salve, I feel!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #32

#33
Thank you for the much needed encouragement Harvey Lloyd#35 for your view; we need to be what we are, for the children or we are damned.

Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee

Lisa Vanderburg to share his thoughts.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #30

#32
I don't believe that you opened a can of worms by any means. I do believe that civilized people can discuss rather personal areas when they show up in the public arena. I do believe that we lack the civility in discussion in many ways, we choose extreme positions without considering the whole of the issue. I sense that i don't have all of the information specifically because i have never been female. So it would make sense that we engage in this discussion across sexs, religons, secular and regulotory agencies to the degree that we resolve to establish absolutes, across various mediums of media. Along with establishing guidelines for behaviour that the courts could then use in judgement. Small discussions sometimes lead to big results. Never stop asking the questions.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #29

#25
Hadn't thought of that Harvey Lloyd's at #29, I wonder at my own naivety and whether this buzz opens a can of worms that would've been better left discarded? As you said Harvey; 'The 20% have declared war against the established principles of humanity.....Soon we (80%) will be the minority and wondering what happened.'

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #28

#26
#27 You make for great thoughts Devesh \ud83d\udc1d Bhatt that am grateful for. I know there are great people doing great things and I am now conscious of the thought you have brought to the table; 'Your buzz has a lot to think about but i chose not to think about it. I have deemed this person as a distraction, twisting the context of real world issues in an offensive manner to make people lose focus.' You are a wise man!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #27

#22
Thank you dear Tausif Mundrawala; it's very apparent your parents are not of the '20%' and that has raised well balanced children like you.

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

3 years ago #26

#28
True, but i must persist because the evil creeps up the hills and into the peaceful hinterland. Thise in power have always had an undue advantage, the majority is always that of have nots. Yet, life must yield progress. Born with the capacity to think and act, something ought to be done, you have witnessed decades of social activism and awakening, i am yet to see something apart from "Anna Hazare" and "Chipko Andolan". From "Chipko" i remembered, there was this lady i had met as a child , "Gaura Devi" she started the movement of savig trees, presently a man is credited as the "Father of the Movement". Many such examples where a woman started something but she has been reduced to a scholarship or a back page, while the man takes credit. I was a child, little evidence exists to credit her. The impact is this, village women slowly been displaced from this movement and confined to household activities again.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #25

#27
The sad truth to your statement is you are correct except it's those (The 20%) that have the microphone and not the 80%. Soon the 80% will die off and the new 80% will be the 20%. It's not speculation, it's fact as our youth today idolize those with the microphone. Who is the balance against this 20% of heretics that only exist in the extremes? What is their message? The 20% have declared war against the established principles of humanity that wisdom of millennia has dictated, and we are awash with language of disagreement without action. This action should include our leading our children by the established rules, cutting off media centric dogma of the war. Soon we (80%) will be the minority and wondering what happened.

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

3 years ago #24

contd I am trying to do a lot of things. While the Government and the Social Power Brokers succeed in selling Fiction as fact to seed doubts and fears and support their agenda you could do one of the two things that seem to be moving and working, at a snails pace but at least the outcomes are desirable: 1) Either a system that has so much public participation that the ideas of oppression become redundant and the exploiters see merit in participation without the need to exploit. 2) In grave circumstances when people are denying facts because of social conditioning, Convert Facts into a Fictional Account. Something that really tells people about the mess. People try to relate fiction with life more than events in life itself. Give them something to discover and they will understand things better . Your buzz has a lot to think about but i chose not to think about it. I have deemed this person as a distraction, twisting the context of real world issues in an offensive manner to make people lose focus.

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

Devesh 🐝 Bhatt

3 years ago #23

Yiannopoulos is an idiot, for wasting his intelligence on creating such a ludicrous context. Man is physically stronger, socially stronger and conditioned to dominate. Even when a man truly respects a woman due to the firm grounding in the principles of humanity, over years and years of conditioning, Society seeds in the doubt that it was his superior nature to give over a handover. When does a person in dominance need such an elaborate explanation? when such a person lacks the self confidence to impose the advantages and perceives the loss of the said dominance. Therefore Yiannopoulos is trying to steer a sinking ship within his perspective. Doubts and fears can be seeded instantly. You decide, are they practically relevant or are they a distraction? Yiannopoulos is a distraction. Now coming to the social aspect, focus on what are the least non negotiable requirements and none of them should be about not wanting something, but wanting something. What you do not want should be part of the conditions, not the basis of demand. Seek and find people who have framed these correctly, either back them or take initiative. There are many in this world who are trying to do the right thing. contd

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #22

#23
It's not so much the business that i am in but rather that i represent the old guard that was thrown out for the tastier materialism world view. My generation is what stifled women, created dogma and lead the world to where it is, or at least according to the special interest groups. So my voice typically draws some quite fiery feedback. Which i typically avoid. My generation treated sex with guilt. We attached the emotion of guilt with the act and only in the most primitive ways could it be experienced without guilt. Even then you couldn't share the journey outside the bedroom as it would bring double guilt. Imagine waking up at 18-25 and realizing that the stork really didn't bring babies:). So there is plenty of blame to go around. In seeking special interest whether religious or gender we began the journey of isolating people. People don't like isolation. But this was no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Promiscuity and gentlemen were a very stifling concept. But stifling as it was it could then be managed. Now that we have abandoned these principles we can't manage it anymore. So then who or whom will be the arbiter of that line? All cycles end in one of two ways. Great wisdom and new paths are found or total disaster and recovery routines. I pray for the former and advocate for it, i am prepared for the latter. Alcohol in the "puritan" days was legislated illegal by the force of women. For the honest among us it broke a bad cycle, yet created an underground that today we celebrate. Sex will eventually have its day in court, what will be the unintended consequences, as you so elegantly search within your post.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #21

#21
Exactly! What will this dripping to flooding degrading of the family look like even a generation or two from now? I guess the MGTOW is still small enough; I pray to God it doesn't grow. The idea of the physically stronger of the two sexes (get over it ladies if that causes offence) being that incensed makes me think of the water retreating before a tsunami. I cannot imagine that these guys could successfully sustain a long life of celibacy (or whatever they choose) within their child-less home made of pure bitterness. Both you and Geoff Hudson-Searle!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #20

#20
Your a Gentleman, Harvey Lloyd....especially considering (as you mentioned) the difficulty of speaking out in the business you're in; I have nothing to lose and that explains why most shy away. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate what you teach me though - not only clarifies but provides hope! Thanks dude :)

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #19

MGTOW is just another leg of sex becoming a commodity. I wouldn’t worry to much with them. They may add to the bitterness but procreation seems to draw folks back into the game of heterosexual romance. The larger issue is what our new generations are being exposed. Their view of relationships is redefining marriage which in turn will see broken homes for the next generation. A self repeating death spiral of family stability. The strength and bonds generated from a strong family are life building. Starting life out within a stable environment gives us the best chance to avoid the helpless hopeless cycle. It invites young people to take risk into the unknown As the sexual revolution concludes desecration of family it is interesting to note, mindfulness and empathy both are learned behaviors with a strong family. College can’t teach this nor can people find the level of trust that is built by a family. The irony, these attributes thought to be the answer in today’s business world will fail also. Secondary is the commercials on TV discussing the engagement of fathers. While we write law that excludes them. Your post is on point with questions but somewhere along the way moral America gave the microphone to Hollywood and a few special interest extremes. We now live in the world they created.

Harvey Lloyd

Harvey Lloyd

3 years ago #18

Lisa Vanderburg I typically stay out of this type of discussion. It is difficult to write about the sexes while media is selling and leveraging the female form as accessible and ready. Just because I use Axe. Even TV shows use sex as a art of the drama presentation. We have become very sexual in our society. To the point of addiction. Another reason I do not comment in this area is my belief system describes the world when men and women do not follow certain rules. It is playing out now. Women and men have a role to play within humanity. If these roles are plaid then symbiotic a relationship is formed. Neither limiting nor self aggrandizing. Like DNA locked in the dance with proteins. My belief system also skews my view of fault. Men are the issue. Whether right now Or generationally men have fostered their fantasies to a point where females have rebelled. Gentlemen are harder to find these days. Men are designed with the skills and core competencies to be Gentlemen. Yet the very fantasy they grew has created a bitterness that lets them off the hook Your post is neither surprising nor unexpected. We said nothing when media pressed forward with sex as a seller of soup, tv shows and cars. Sex is now a commodity. Now generationally it has gone to far and we want to pull the reigns back. The horse has left the barn and is untethered. Until men are held accountable at the Gentlemen level and women, well I will let you fill that one in. Great post and a serious issue but sex drive is a two sided coin that the coin has rolled into a bad corner. I don’t see a way out that won’t look draconian.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #17

#17
I totally agree Geoff Hudson-Searle. I am sure sticking to the isolation of gaming and interfacing via social media instead of group socializing is the barbed end of the www. The parents are too scared to be bothered to teach their children etiquette and social niceties. Seems I only just scratched the surface...you have taught me a lot, my friend! What a terrible world we will see if men like you didn't espouse what you do; respect, civility, manners firmly embedded in morality. Healthy and consensual love cannot be lost....

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #16

#16
I'm ashamed to say I had to look that up: frotteurism. I've encountered all sorts of deviant behavior, just not realized that they all came under the term paraphilic disorders. Absolutely, females deviants are out there too. I read about the stats in London not too long ago; is it opportunism, is it getting worse, is this different from the Metro in Paris or New York's subway? And there I was thinking we'd 'evolved'...silly girl!

Geoff Hudson-Searle

Geoff Hudson-Searle

3 years ago #15

#15
Willful, unwanted touching is an arrestable offense. It definitely time for people to to give up the fantasy app Lisa Vanderburg and engage in a 'real relationship' Without question most people want to find the ultimate form of human connection, the kind that lasts a lifetime. People want to love someone and they want to be loved in return, but that does not start with groping a stranger in public, where is the respect, etiquette and manners, perhaps people should practice morality, like opening doors and being kind, I forgot there is no app for this kind of behavior!

Geoff Hudson-Searle

Geoff Hudson-Searle

3 years ago #14

#14
Always a pleasure Lisa Vanderburg to contribute to your thought provoking buzzes! Life is certainly changing and not just on the London underground as research has proved More than half of women in London worry about sexual harassment on public, according to new research - and 23 per cent said they had been victims of groping or other unwanted physical contact. Other Londoners said they had been subject to sexually offensive name calling and wolf-whistling while commuting by Tube, bus or train. The survey found 86 per cent of women in Brazil and Thailand had experienced sexual harassment or violence in public areas, while in the UK, younger women appeared to be at higher risk – 92 per cent of women aged 18-34 said that they had been victims of some sort of harassment in urban areas. Actually, there are lots of words for men who grope women – most of them unsuitable for publication. You need look no farther than today’s headlines to spot one of those words. For me, the first word that comes to mind is "criminal," but the desire to grope unconsenting victims itself has a name: frotteurism. Men may be the usual suspects when it comes to groping, but both males or females can engage in behaviors or fantasies that qualify as frotteurism. Anyone who derives sexual pleasure from non-consensual touching is potentially diagnosable with frotteuristic disorder. Victims may be of the opposite sex or of the same sex as the perpetrator. Sexual groping, like rape, is about domination. The victim is expected to just endure the abuse. There is also a sadistic element, since the aggressor’s gratification comes as much from humiliating the victim and observing her reaction as from the act of touching.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #13

How come I'm not getting any notifications of comments, Bebee?

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #12

#13
It is a tricky and difficult subject, so I'm very grateful for your thoughts Geoff Hudson-Searle. The pics all came from the MGTOW site just to clarify - not my view whatsoever! But you're right, women have always had the choice to use their sexuality to their advantage; I can imagine many starlets have had 'couch interviews' and that's why the Harvey Weinstein scandal came as more shocking - not of what he did, but that modern women STILL didn't say anything, for shame. Gone are the days that if a man slapped your ass, you slapped his face :) I remember when I was young, passing building sites and all the unwanted attention, yet when I aged and it stopped, I laughed at myself....did I miss it? I didn't want it, that's true! And just to prove how old I am, I was so shocked by this MGTOW business; it's was led me to wonder about the groping Millennials are complaining about - both sides; is there a more aggressive angle to it? After reading Joyce \ud83d\udc1d Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee buzz and the comment that drew my attention, things seems to have taken on a more sinister angle.

Geoff Hudson-Searle

Geoff Hudson-Searle

3 years ago #11

Lisa Vanderburg Great buzz and certainly plenty to absorb here. A thought that came to mind across Harvey Weinstein is not just about Harvey, in the UK we have seen finance, football, media moguls and many sectors investigated, is it fair to say if you are a woman or man for that fact and told you have no choice but to sleep with me or have sex the way I want it or you are fired, so exactly how does that work? Equally we have had woman and men wrongly accuse people when actually they were wrongfully out with other people and were caught. A recent newspaper article showed that Millennials feel that being groped on the way to work is normal, do we not have any dignity, where exactly has our moral, ethical and respect for another human being gone? Your chart on genders view across societies view, men's view and woman's view is interesting and so is the shift in peoples perception on relationships. I still believe that when the energy and power of love instantly strikes two beautiful souls. This energy field gives us strength, courage, compassion, and total love for one another forever, however, some of the attitudes of others in today's world can cloud true love forever if we are not careful, it is true to say we all make choices, but for some these choices are irreversible for true love to be found, which leaves today society is ever declining position when it comes to relationships.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #10

#10
So appreciate your comment . I just want us to ENJOY each other - laugh at our differences. Pretty much every man I've conversed with is sane, intelligent, funny and most delightfully MALE...ain't that the point? We can still agree to disagree...we do it within our own sex all the time! Bring on the sanity :)

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #9

#9
Amen, sister Franci\ud83d\udc1dEugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador! You're so right....and I'm clearly so out of touch :)

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Superb read Lisa Vanderburg. Unfortunately, it's years of a narrow-minded societal mindset that has become accepted as the norm. I feel it will take some time to resolve. We, men and women, need to stand strong for equality and respect for each other.

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #7

#3
So true Pascal Derrien and the perfect phrasing: binary narratives; I hadn't thought on it as such until now. Frankly, both sides have crossed the line at times, I just never thought 'rabid feminists' were taken all that seriously in numbers...is that because I'm female I wonder? The idea of a group of men being so angry that they would effectively cut themselves out of female connection, and (by default) kids, makes me want to weep. Where the hell did humor go? Really appreciate your comment, my friend!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #6

#4
No, thank you Bill Stankiewicz, \ud83d\udc1d Brand Ambassador!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #5

#2
In truth Joyce \ud83d\udc1d Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee, I could not imagine such an organized and extreme position by a few intelligent, fully-functional guys. The hatred is scary and actually saddening for all of humanity. I don't know how big this movement is, but I feel their loneliness can only lead to increased anger. The very opposite of the mission I see you as being on. Thanks for sharing!

Lisa Vanderburg

Lisa Vanderburg

3 years ago #4

#1
Thanks Don Philpott\u2618\ufe0f for taking the courage to be the first to comment. There are so many good men; I know that to be true!

Bill Stankiewicz, 🐝 Brand Ambassador

THX Lisa & Joyce for this interesting Buzz :)

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

3 years ago #2

there is binary narrative out there on both sides which is disturbing, we have moved into man v.s woman BS storylines and uber generalisation which is way beyond the scandals and issues that have rightly been called out but we seem stuck in a moment. Not sure how we are going to get out of this ......

Joyce 🐝 Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee

Thank you for the mention, Lisa Vanderburg, and thank you for this buzz. I walk a fine line when I write in an effort to reach the greatest audience. Your post is a great elaboration.

More articles from Lisa Vanderburg

View blog
1 year ago · 1 min. reading time
Lisa Vanderburg

Reflecting on reflections: 2020 vision

Why do we do what we do? Naturally, I refer to the ...

2 years ago · 3 min. reading time
Lisa Vanderburg

A brand new Skin!

For those beautiful hearts that took the time to r ...

2 years ago · 6 min. reading time
Lisa Vanderburg

The Folly of Shedding Skins

I have been gone awhile and I have missed many spl ...