Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago · 3 min. reading time · ~10 ·

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Contradictions of Biblical Proportions

Contradictions of Biblical Proportions

Must do this now, or I'll blink-out like a burnt light bulb, again.

I've recently come from Implantation of Hope by the exceptional Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee are quite possibly the two best debate partners ever - I enjoy their exchanges immensely (even though much of it goes over my head). I know Harvey to be a 'working' Christian (by that I mean he sees his faith is a 'work in progress'. I know Ali is not. From his own words, he is not 'spiritual.'

That said, both know, understand and agree (in the main) with the wisdom held in such a book like the bible. That is a  philosophical decision they have reached, not a theological one. They could simply agree to differ where needed, but they don't really. They have moved past that barrier and their respect for each other is what holds them in check. If they didn't, we'd have little to benefit from. But because they do, we are the beneficiaries of their marvelous minds.



In summation, and in my humble opinion, we do have to be mindful how far we go in public; no one should bandy about their faith lightly, like a bunch of tracts left at McDonalds. Generally speaking, I don't see much of that here anyway.

But in the same vein, we should not be intolerant or threatened of the faith of others. They may teach us a thing or two!


I may know my bible but I'm a fairly crap Christian, meaning I don't 'work' it as I should. My problem with Christianity is church - it's full of Christians. They give out free coffee & stuff there though! But, for me, it's not a problem of faith. I'm just weird like that.




In dedication to Ali 🐝 Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee   the most patient of teachers!


#Hope #Harvey #Biblical Proportions #Christian #Ali
Comments

John Rylance

4 years ago #77

#73
Atheist has a meaning in Greek of without god(s). So we would all be atheists, and have to make do with idols perhaps, or leaders.

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #76

#75
#75 Lisa Vanderburg I have worn it, bore it, dropped it, was rent by it and yes, it has protected me (when I let it) ... I'm sure MANY could say "Amen" Oh my sister-with-brave-heart: the one who says she would jump from a speeding car ... this lines up: "The trouble is, I don't always want it to protect me, to be my defense, to act as my guard to what evils this world spews forth. Sometime (I find) it's better to get down in the dirt. Sometimes I find, that hope is in the mud of misery" I am the handmaid-happy-for-His-cover: I claim ongoing that "place of safety beneath His everlasting arms" ... grateful that "His reach is never short & His Word is never void" ... I claim for everyone that is in the circle-of-my-life

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #75

#74
And therein, I must challenge you, dear Fay Vietmeier. For I know the armor of which you speak. I have worn it, bore it, dropped it, was rent by it and yes, it has protected me (when I let it). The trouble is, I don't always want it to protect me, to be my defense, to act as my guard to what evils this world spews forth. Sometime (I find) it's better to get down in the dirt. Sometimes I find, that hope is in the mud of misery. Bless you, sweet sister.

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #74

#68
Lisa Vanderburg Wow Lisa~ "What strikes me is the war believers are in (pick a faith) and the war those who have chosen another route are in. It just seems like we're all in the same uniform?" Sadly "Christians" (or pick a faith) look no different than those "who have chosen another route" (non-behaviors) Divorce would be a good example Believers are given a wardrobe called the "full armor of God" (Ephesians 6) Now this is not to say that many "believers" avail themselves of this "Divine Designer attire" ....rather rush out each day into the world and forget to put it on ;~) I realize that the "same uniform" you mention ... may be reflected as externals Whereas the "armor of God" is internal (unseen) but a Source of protection & provision for each challenge we may meet

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #73

Pascal Derrien The thought occurs to me that if there was no God there would be no "atheists"

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #72

Harvey Lloyd “The superstition that man can create values” ~ CS Lewis Align with what you say here: This action relentlessly results in tyrannical efforts to enforce self serving values” And “It IS difficult for those in the fish bowl to recognize a higher level of being from within the water they swim” (which is confirmed by another “G”) “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” ~Albert Einstein I am going to watch again the: The Poison of Subjectivism by C.S. Lewis (thank you for recommending it )

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #71

#61
Harvey Lloyd These came to mind "God is not Dead" ... (3 movies that speak into our time on this subject: unbelief Vs belief) God's not Dead (3) A Light in Darkness (I have not seen yet but it's now on my list) Nothing to lose ... something to gain is the thinking of this bee ;~) ... I could say "I dare you" ... but I won't (I needed the rhyme ;~) Consider it "bee-sharing" or "bee-daring"

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #70

#51
Lisa Vanderburg I was hoping you might expand this thought Lisa "I know truth (as we know it in earthly sense) to be a lie."

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #69

#60
Pascal Derrien ... few things are so ingrained that can't be open to change ;~) As mentioned elsewhere: The journey of life should be a journey of growth (personal & spiritual) ... we are always in process & should be open to and able to see the moments & opportunities to GROW (a KEY) ... often those moments pass by because of BIAS, blindness ... a closed heart or closed mind (heart condition & heart-attitude) I share this in bee-affection ... a man chooses what a man chooses A wise bee often mentions there are those pesky "consequences" for ALL of us ...Harvey Lloyd

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #68

#64
#66 Oh...I know that of which you speak, Harvey Lloyd. Look, I am 61 going on full-lead. I know of what you BOTH speak. I know the influences, damage, promise (broken, & renewed). Yet....yet. What strikes me is the war believers are in (pick a faith) and the war those who have chosen another route are in. It just seems like we're all in the same uniform?

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #67

#63
Well said, John Rylance!! If I may use your space, with your indulgence, my dear John...I know, sounds like a letter): This started as a reflection of how we perceive each others' mention of [a] faith over a public platform. I am thrilled it's grown beyond yet I, (unguided missile that I am!) always wonder if I did the RIGHT thing...it is my wont. But ultimately, debate. Debate is wonderful!! Thanks John, for forgiving my grandstanding!.....I hope... :)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #66

#62
That along with several other philosophers of brought me to the point you find yourself. It is difficult for those in the fish bowl to recognize a higher level of being from within the water they swim. In almost all cases it winds up one human stepping outside the group they live by some self imposed deity status. This action relentlessly results in tyrannical efforts to enforce self serving values. It is in our nature, lacking guidance from outside the fish bowl. The car cant know its inventor, but can see by existence that a need was being met. Not only the need but the expectation.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #65

#64
Thanks for the answer. We all have to form some belief system to meet life as we find it. There is merit to one who has met life and found a framework they can meet the daily grind.

Pascal Derrien

4 years ago #64

#61
to your question Harvey Lloyd I don’t know for the others but for me it comes from childhood experiences observation and my own take nothing very philosophical or abstract 🤔

John Rylance

4 years ago #63

Faith is what we has individuals believe in. While our religion is that which most closely represents or beliefs. If it doesn't then we change to another. 

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #62

#60
That's okay Pascal Derrien...I'm not even sure I'm real! :) That said, the link Harvey sent blew my mind!!! https://youtu.be/Lgcd6jvsCFs

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #61

#60
I have encountered many atheists that now offers a spectrum. From i dont believe all the way up to i dont believe and wish to destroy the concept of "God". I like your approach. I do have a quite forward question though. Not wishing to win you over by any means. Where do we gather virtue or values that drive morals? Early in this comment thread i posted a link to subjectivism by CS Lewis. I would be interested in your thoughts about the topic. My belief system also includes a very pragmatic statement that man can not produce and hold onto its own morals. History has proven that when this happens millions die at the hand of enforcement of changing morals. So how do we wrestle with the questions of morality within the power vacuum of the Times Magazine statement: "God is Dead"

Pascal Derrien

4 years ago #60

Not sure what to say as I don't do faith, religion or bible or any variant of the latter. My kids and wife are Irish Catholics and I am a hard core atheist they respect my choice I respect theirs. There is no philosophy of any kind about tit I am just very practical about the topic. Amen (damn I have done it again :-) )

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #59

#56
It’s one of my favorites. Like you, even the tenth time listening I have to do it twice

Cyndi wilkins

4 years ago #58

#57
How very true that is Fay Vietmeier...Patience is not just granted upon the asking...It is a lesson to be learned.

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #57

#37
Cyndi wilkins What a good point Cyndi "those who 'trigger' you are actually your greatest teachers...Even if they don't have a clue;-) "Lord give me patience" and suddenly an avalanche of trying people to test you ... and help you work on "patience" God has a sense of humor ... I'm sure ;~)

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #56

#52
A W E S O M E Harvey...thanks for the share!! Just going to listen to it a few more times; LOVE C.S.Lewis! I needed that...thanks! :)

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #55

#49
haha....thanks Jerry Fletcher; sorely needed that! I have the tread of a rabid bull in the proverbial :) And, I'm grateful...no one died [yet?]!

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #54

#26
Lisa Vanderburg This too is "apples of gold in settings of silver" "And therein lies the rub: we must tread lightly with topics of the heart. Yet not so light that nothing is left, that the world turns black and white again."

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #53

Pt. 2: I should have said amazing 'feast' from Randall Burns; him being a Chef and all! Anyway, dear Fay Vietmeier. #42 you got it in your point here. I'm the sort of type that wants to see what it's like to step out of a fast-moving car. Never actually done it, but I know the allure! That said, I'd need the perverseness of Job to justify my belief; I do applaud you for that!

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #52

https://youtu.be/Lgcd6jvsCFs Should you find the need to delve deeply within the discussions CS Lewis has a great thought here.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #51

#40
to #43 Pt 1: Ya know Fay Vietmeier, I am so grateful for the fullness of your response here; it is a measure of the solid truth of your convictions! I however, have found myself wavering under the weight of responsibility....have I done the right thing? I know truth (as we know it in earthly sense) to be a lie. Furthermore, I have had always a sense of not being here. Now, you'd think that would let me off the hook, no? It doesn't. Randall Burns buzzed an amazing feat: https://www.bebee.com/producer/@randall-burns/expanding-the-paradigm-of-our-perceptions-senses-and-philosophy that just goes to show how much of our talons are invested here (or there). Fabulous stuff! Point being, I wrote this as an acknowledgement of potentially impossible factions crossed by two dudes that have decided to just enjoy each others' exchanges. I too will continue before the dreaded 'count' max thing!

Ali Anani

4 years ago #50

#45
Dear Fay Vietmeier We measure the strength of capturing headlines by their logical, emotional and spiritual content. The most impacting ones are those who are rich with spiritual power. It exists, but unfortunately it may be used for evil purposes. It is a sword with two edges. If used properly, this force can move mountains towards a noble goal, which isn't always the case.

Jerry Fletcher

4 years ago #49

Lisa, Isn't it wonderful how putting the question can generate so much response? Mom would have called it "pokin at somethin' to see what happens." Bless you for having the courage to poke at the pachyderm. Certainly got a response. And so it goes.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #48

#47
Thank you Fay Vietmeier This is the theme of my next post. It is a challenging one.

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #47

#11
Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee This is such a lovely thought my dear Professor: "A word aptly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver" ~Proverbs "You know that pendulums of wall clocks tend to synchronize their movement, I consider differing views as each a pendulum placed to another one. The beauty is then finding synchronicity between them." ~Ali

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #46

#9
Lisa Vanderburg I wonder if Richard Dawkins will have that same thinking when he stands before the throne? You don't have to answer - I was not familiar with him or "The God Delusion'''

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #45

Lisa Gallagher Heart-attitude … the heart condition of a person Is one of the greatest determiners of how we see and live (whether a person of faith or not a person of faith) This is Truth: What you feed grows: “good or evil” … “darkness or Light” … “love or hate” The journey of life should be a journey of growth (personal & spiritual) ... we are always in process & should be open to and able to see the moments & opportunities to GROW (a KEY) ... often those moments pass by because of BIAS, blindness or pride (heart condition & heart-attitude) (My sincere apology beBee to everyone beBee was making me chop up the thoughts with their "2000" refusal to send )

Ali Anani

4 years ago #44

Fay Vietmeier Very enriching AND balanced comments. You ended your this comment of yours by saying "“Seek to understand before being understood” (This principle, if applied: will multiply understanding in the physical (including science) and the spiritual". You did just this with your last three comments. Congrats

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #43

Lisa Vanderburg 5) This brings a SMILE: “My problem with Christianity is church - it's full of Christians” All I can say is that a sign should be hung over every church saying “all who enter are under construction” 6) Everyone human has a heart & a spirit … much of LIFE is found in these 2 places that, although not seen, are of equal importance to all that is seen in the physical … sadly too much of our time-talents-and resources are focused on the physical … at the loss of the spirit

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #42

Lisa Vanderburg 3) “political correctness” is the world’s deceptive message “sameness” as taught in utopian society in the book: The Giver ~Lois Lowry https://www.bebee.com/producer/@fay-vietmeier-pennsylvania/be-a-student-of-history-value-the-lessons-don-t-erase-the-past-199154 4) Thank you for how you convey the relationship of Ali & Harvey So well stated: “we are the beneficiaries of their marvelous minds” … I can testify that I have even been blessed ;~) … as I read I was reminded that in all things it is best to: “Seek to understand before being understood” (This principle, if applied: will multiply understanding in the physical (including science) and the spiritual

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #41

Lisa Vanderburg Continued… To NOT hold a book in esteem .. such as the Bible… my hope would be, that at least it was READ … and after reading: one could give specific reasons for questioning its validity “Sheer laziness” is a prevailing wind in humanity … do not think you are not its only possessor my dear @Lisa ;~) there world is filled with “honky crackers” ; ~) 2) Critical point you make Lisa: “faith and religion are quite different” Faith should NEVER be confused with religion “Religion is of man” (of this beware) Faith is a heart that believes God … believes his Word … Faith is a journey … and as all journeys go, it is a sowing a reaping … for “faith” (like light) has varying qualities & brightness” ~fem-v … faith is what you cannot see … faith is what is yet to be … (who needs “faith” for what he already has)

Fay Vietmeier

4 years ago #40

#39
Lisa Vanderburg I have combined here ... how your good responses caused me to think & respond Thank you Lisa for putting words to what you were thinking ;~) “being on ones knees” is a place to find inspiration ;~) I like very much this question: “How many of us comment with passages from, say; The Quran or The Vedas or the Tripitaka or the Torah?” In the search for knowledge, truth, wisdom and revelation (which can be in the physical – like science- or the spiritual) ... inquiring minds are well served by curiosity that follows through IF a person has read & discovered truths … that might enrich life (their & others) … this sharing is “rightly-ordered” (right heart intent – and the understanding that sharing does not necessarily produce agreement) However such sharing merits respect & consideration … and who knows … another person may learn … grow personally or spiritually (part 1)

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #39

#36
#37 #38 All excellent points (sorry...duty called!). I am very grateful for all your thoughtful comments which enrich my understanding!

Lada 🏡 Prkic

4 years ago #38

#16
Lisa, the friendship such as between Ali and Harvey is not rare, at least in my part of the world. My best friend is a practical Catholic, and a very good friend of my husband is a Bosnian Muslim. Some of our friends are religious, some not, and for some, I don't know because we never talked about it. I think it says all! :-)

Cyndi wilkins

4 years ago #37

#34
#35 Power comes by way of learning, certainly not by creating fear in the hearts and minds of other men.To reach outward with compassion fills those voids as we learn to communicate differently with more clarity and understanding. The impulse toward anger loses power, so every time we find ourselves falling into the trap of negative behaviors, we are being gifted an opportunity to change that mode of learning. So in fact, those who 'trigger' you are actually your greatest teachers...Even if they don't have a clue;-)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #36

#33
Absolutely, nailed it! The battle of right and wrong always ends in war. The battle for wisdom always ends in growth and well being. If i have to destroy another for the followers then i reject wisdom and support tribalism of the animal wisdom.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #35

#33
Wonderful advise to 'take a knee', lovely Cyndi wilkins! I'm taking both as I fully agree that I'm at risk of tripping over my own humanity :) I can be pretty dense as you know! This nastier political stance has not helped at all. I wonder if we're all feeling the squeeze of 7.8 billion other bodies?

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #34

#32
#33 Lisa Vanderburg offers some insight into the choice of decernement vs judgement. The USA finds itself deep into judgement and as citizens we experience the two sides working through judgement. We used to be very passionate about discernment also. We have lost that. Life seems to be riddled with personal choices. This is one of those we battle frequently. Each offers short term consequences and long term ones as well. Discernment requires me to sacrifice now so that the future may be better understood. Judgement serves me right now with consequences we see playing out in the political arena everyday. One can not observe politics today and not realize it has become a religion that judges people harshly. Until such time as that judgement falls upon them. Then they want to appeal to my true nature and understanding, discernment. There is always two paths. Each with its own consequences. Like war or football, it is a game of yards and small squimishes to an end game. How we play that game makes the goal elusive or a Beamon of light many can follow.

Cyndi wilkins

4 years ago #33

#7
I think we both turned out just fine my dear;-) In reference to the discussion going on with Harvey Lloyd, I think we all have a tendency to rush to judgement...And sometimes we say things we wish we could take back. It is a 'human thing'...However, as stated beautifully by Harvey, it is how we choose to respond to that which perhaps challenges our faith or triggers us in some way...By taking a knee, so to speak. It creates the space necessary to consider all sides of an issue before jumping to conclusions. We're seeing quite a lot of this lately with the current climate of US politics...The whole world is watching as a nation crumbles...for better or worse depending on which side you are on. A lot of name calling and personal attacks by those who slither out from under those rocks with the sole purpose of doing harm. We are in need of more divergent thinking in order to create the flexibility necessary to work collaboratively from both sides of the isle.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #32

#31
Discernment is what I'd want to aim for, but do I have: 1) the time or 2) the desire? When I question my own motives it is never lacking in judgement. It is never kind, nor compassionate, nor forgiving. Therefore, there are two things I have now learned: I must write from the heart before my head can interfere (I think this is what I most likely do), and am I even able to look at others without judgement? As I say, I like to think I do.... One thing is for such; we are not all equal in the space we take!

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #31

#30
It is impossible to do neither decernment or judgement, but we can choose between the two. Discernment is i want to understand your point of view. In reading your comment i get the understanding that judgement is a flash answer in our mind to external stimulus. But through axiomatic beliefs we can change they to discernment through seeking understanding. I do agree though the distance from stimulas to judgement is a very short distance these days. Maybe counting to ten might help us even now. Discernment can be found in those ten seconds.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #30

#28
#27 I think that judgement is almost impossible (not quite though) to avoid. No matter how I may say something, someone else may see it through a different filter that I hadn't considered or seen. Then my thoughts or actions that I though were curiosity, become inquisition. Like you say in #25 to Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee, 'I don't know' is a great place to start. #22 #23 Sorry...missed these. Respect, my friend - I hear you.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #29

"1. How many of us comment with passages from, say; The Quran or The Vedas or the Tripitaka or the Torah? Not many, I expect." All of us do, all the time. All of the documents you mention trend towards how we should live. If you were to write a belief on a piece of paper that would serve the community, you would find that belief in all the documents. If you would write a belief down that destroys the community, that would be present in the documents as wrong, evil and usually carry a penalty. Our beliefs of right and wrong are emergent from those who have gone before us. We like to think it is our own original idea, but no, it existed in antiquity long before i stated it. We know this because of observance of history. If we look at the successful societies/cultures in history we see they followed the golden rule in some measure. Those that failed from internal destruction and lives lost, did not. From Rome falling, to the communist/socialist regimes killing off non believers, we can measure within all of the texts described where they were and were not.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #28

#26
We need not tread but so lightly. We must respect and love the space we call Lisa Vanderburg. We can talk about anything we wish as long as we both sense respect of the individuals space. We can compare spaces discuss our own journey's within our space and each can take and discard that which we agree or disagree. The moment i attempt to discuss your space as unequal, more than, less than or seek to diminish the holiness of your space, i am wrong. Regardless, if i may be right within the topic. We normally experience a attack on our space as arrogance.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #27

#24
Many Greeks had to much time. I agree that your purpose in looking at faith was from a christian perspective. My highlights were merely to lay the ground work, we all have faith in something. It can be a hodgepodge of political, social or environmental issues. More importantly when we do discuss faith in the context you offered all of these other faiths show up. Discounting, supporting or maligning the spiritual aspects of faith. Of which, i hold no judgement. But being the skeptic i also witness faith in human and spiritual thought as weapons of mass destruction or the grace of being a great neighbor. When you question the WMD side of the equation though, stand ready to get the both barrels of how your space is terrible. You have brought forward a great discussion and some need to brush up on the space i call Harvey.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #26

#19
#18 And therein lies the rub: we must tread lightly with topics of the heart. Yet not so light that nothing is left, that the world turns black and white again. You men have left firm footfalls for many of us to follow. I for one, am deeply grateful!

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #25

#18
We may differ in methodology, but i have never thought so, but we share one great question of humanity. How can we judge humanity within a framework of natural or spiritual wisdom? One clear unstated axiom i sense from our conversations is, "I dont know." But we are willing to explore things, not through judgement, but rather the landscape of chaos. We are lost in questions that humanity longs for the answer. But like those in history it is a journey of understanding, not answers.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #24

#13
#14 Faith can have many meanings these days although for this purpose, it's connected to deity...dunno if that's even right? The word religion has altogether more mucky connotations, methinks. Yet, any ID or government form you have to fill out will ask you your 'religious' leaning, not your 'faith.' So you make a good point in adding more meanings to that last word. I remember when we moved Stateside & hubby had to get his green card. The questions were absurdly funny: 'Do you intend to kill the President? Or 'Have you ever murdered anyone? with a multiple-choice answer....lol! Maybe it's just me, but the temptation to tick the wrong box is overwhelming - glad it weren't me. Point being, we are fickle beings. We ebb and flow with the tides. And we are most often our own worst enemy. So this really is a tribute to the power of standing on shifting sands regardless of the haboob between you and Ali. That's faith! Socrates had altogether way too much time on his hands!

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #23

#17
Part 2 Just because i chose for you to not participate in my grouping based on your choices, does not give me permission to destroy your inalienable rights or space. I love your space as my own. I would die for your rights to own your space. Even if i find them unlovable. These are very challenging concepts that we must reach into antiquity to understand there meaning. Choose your wisdom wisely as the answers you derive from your journey will define your space, and its ability to share in community goals. We cannot weaponize scripture, philosophy, science or other wise council. To weaponize these paradigms will eventually deny the individual their inalienable rights or space of existence. Our framers of the US Constitution new this and wrote a document to attempt to forever hold that individuals space in perpetuity. But we find that social media has opened a WMD that is attacking the space. Your space is holy. Even if you/we are not. It is reserved for you to do whatever you wish. Until such time as you attempt to take over another's space. I "love" the space you stand within and will defend your holy inalienable right with my own life. I will also help you define your space, decorate your space or leave it alone. Or share a fine beverage in your space. When one begins to describe your space as right or wrong, good or evil, we no longer seek wisdom. We seek to own another's space. Whatever the topic the game has changed. The topic is now trespassing on my inalienable rights.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #22

#17
I appreciate the thought here. But i think pelting might be a little to strong a word. The second greatest commandment calls for us to love our neighbor, and of course there is the secular versions of do unto others.... Where did this come from? How do you love the unlovable? These questions deserve the greatest of time and care to unpack. Cultures have grown and fallen based on these two very wise statements of faith. I dont believe we should offer up euphemistic observations but review the nature of a world that we might live in from these two very potent axioms. We can use the Bible, Socrates, Plato, or maybe a more modern philosopher Nietzsche. We should not discredit any form of wisdom that may help us better understand the concept. For me this concept in my research hinges on the simple fact that every human owns a presence within the paradigm of humanity. Our country describes this as an "Inalienable right". Regardless of anything that represents a label or grouping you exist within an envelope of owning your space. Within that space you must also decide how you will share these rights with others. Subject to the rejection of participation of others who do not share your understanding of these two axioms. But you also get to participate in the blessings when you determine to share your rights with others in a common goal. See part 2

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #21

#12
Harvey Lloyd..my man! Great to read you! The pile of dogma is what the elephant came in the room to leave! Must catch up with what you said now - back soon.....

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #20

#11
I consider it a superb compliment to cause you pause on your track of the day, my friend! Swing away!! :)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #19

#8
I really enjoyed your thoughts on Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee post and here. What we believed in the early part of our modern beginnings was a discussion everyone had everyday. Along the way though we have forced our beliefs into privatization. We all experience, from our own perspectives, right and wrong. I think it wise to challenge the beliefs of an individual who has laid judgement out in the open. Not their character but the basis of their faith in their conclusions. But as discussed earlier various words invoke prepackaged ideas of meaning. If we are to get past euphemistic concepts and discuss the fundamentals of why something is right or wrong we will have to expose our deeper thoughts. This is a dark journey as we open ourselves to character/belief assignation. I am with you, we believe what we believe. To each his own. But in making this proclamation each of us must also live with the consequences of our actionable beliefs. Unfortunately today, in media as you wisely point out, these consequences are heavy. In today's media "i agree with you" as long as your faith matches mine. We cant explore the doctrines of our own faith in any topic without the ever present bots that could subvert our open thinking into devilish characters.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #18

#15
Dear friend Harvey Lloyd- most of the times I read comments I respond quickly. However; there are comments that need to be studied deeply before responding to them such as your previous three comments. Yes, and this is what makes the spectrum. If all colors were blue where is the fun? We have different colors of thinking (reminds me of the six-thinking hats) and we need all of them to see the full spectrum of our ideas. I must say that I enjoy our differences when they happen because I know I am seeing the spectrum and not the mono color. Like you said in your previous comments faith is based on our needs and I add including our knowledge needs. I tend to use science as the starting step of an idea, but this is a mono color that you have always enriched with social color, spiritual color, psycho color and whatever color needed. That dear Lisa Vanderburg and other readers noticed this association is a reflection that we need to differ to learn and this is the only way to advance our knowledge. You have been a great example of understanding my good friend.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #17

PART TWO: #8 I applaud and respect your personal views and beliefs, and I totally agree that we (outside of the old bulls) must not shut down our discussions by pelting each other with bibles (or that wretch Richard Dawkins either!). Love the quotes, especially Proverbs :) Think my favorite is when Moses takes off for the 10 commandments, leaving Aaron in charge after explicitly instructions 'NO IDOLS!' Everybody got bored of waiting. Moses returns to find the 'kids gettin' up to no good' “I said to them, ‘Whoever has any gold, let them tear it off.’ So they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf.” (Exodus 32:24) The 'ta-da!' moment is priceless!

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #16

#8
I am thrilled and delighted at your response, lovely Lada \ud83c\udfe1 Prkic comments as fodder for a buzz - it is something I've been wanting at address for some time though! Not solve, not stop, not 'answer' even. 'Approach' would probably be the best word? What I find so curious is the very respectful relationship between Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee, who have managed to find a way to discuss religion and faith quite openly without offense. It is that example that I've been waiting to address; we know the old adage that 'sex, religion and politics' should never be discussed' yet, here we are. Does that mean we've overcome the adage? Probably not, but testing the water now and then...? It may just be that these two massive bulls remain the exception to the rule; I'm fine with that. They've earned their territory on that score! PART 1...says too many letters.....

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #15

Faith is what Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee and i discuss. What is the basis of knowledge that human condition should draw from? Dr. Ali draws from a natural world that he always supp rises me with his thoughts and musings. Mine is more spiritual in nature as we discuss how do we evaluate ourselves. Natural laws exist and science is constantly learning new nuances of this law. Specifically as it applies to the human condition. I don't believe Dr. Ali and myself are two far off in attempting to find wisdom in this paradigm. So Randall Burns it is not so much opposite forces as it is a shared paradigm of wisdom the two of us seek. By the way its great to see you in the comment section. Having read many of your posts i believe your kitchen is representative of the same paradigm we attempt to unpack. Ps. Thanks for the recipe we have enjoyed it many times.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #14

Faith is another word. Climate change, or any "in the media catastrophe" that is looking for its groupies, presents us with data, talking points and all the needed materials to develop a faith in the person or presented materials. Once we choose a side the bias begins. We see and hear from the framework of our faith exactly what we wish to design our faith on. Faith is merely a collection of knowledge and facts we have adorned our minds and claim wisdom. So does my faith in the doctrine of climate change rest in Al Gore or maybe Greta? I think it wise not attach the word faith to a religion alone. There is ample churches of many doctrines that have their preachers, teachers and devils. So the question in popular issues is what religion do i follow that builds my faith in the bias i have adorned my thoughts? This was and is Socrates's question. Faith seems to follow need quite closely. I need something to be true so that i can be successful, social and accepted by the group. I choose my points of faith from the arena of knowledge based on need. Cyndi wilkins very eloquently made this point. The question to ask, is the faith i use as my shield in everyday life, that collection of "facts" worth dying, or do they change to fit the moment? Rest assured i will not be dying for the likes of climate change or the left/right debate. So one should consider their own faith in what motivates them to challenge others, collect within groups, and plot their own future success. But to consider the faith of one, lets be clear, in today's climate many people in power are preaching a religion that will eventually impart their faith upon us. Faith in their own understanding of what you need.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #13

#10
Your questions and probing thoughts can not waiver my concept of "you". I cherish questions that are deliberate and focused. I too hold a degree in skepticism and the need to apologetically offer thoughts of my own beliefs. Thank you for your thoughts and challenges.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #12

I am a humble soul that sits outside the forest of wisdom looking for the key. IMHO these are the discussions mankind should be having. But like eating an elephant we attempt to accomplish the task in one bite. I believe @Ken Boddie struck the real cord that opens up two of the greatest issues. Words carry meaning and who gets to define that meaning, rules the day, and where did the elephant come from? Religion is one such word. It seems to carry a universal theme of those people who go to a building and worship a deity that provides hope in the now and the future. If i have missed the definition in the minds of those engaged please help me define. If we step back from the word we will find that religion is something we all share in common. We can look at climate change and find its preachers, devils and scripture that gets ground into our lexicon from both sides. Climate science and its proponents preach within their worship services everyday. A second religion is the "Right" and "Left". Each day the preachers of these two domains parade in our lives the various scriptures of divided true believers in the faith of government. So if we are to really extract the word religion then we should apply it to all things that look the same. In a very real manner of speaking we all preach around our own personal belief systems as we post here or converse in our social groups. So the word religious really prevails within each of us. The ultimate and only question i have, is where did your doctrine come from? This question is usually answered from the negative. Never from the affirmative.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #11

#10
Dear Lisa Vanderburg- you even have a bigger GINORMOUS heart than mine. This is reflected in your writing "Only with respect, we enhance our minds, not shut them down!",. Such words will only come from a big heart that talks to a big mind. You mentioned dear Harvey Lloyd and I must say he is a glowing star with broad attitude and his capacity to deal with differing opinions has been acting a torch to me in removing the darkness of conflicts that we may easily avoid if we have mutual respect for our beliefs. WE differ to learn and not to fight. Your post here and comments on my last post have shifted my interest and I am now shelving three drafts to focus on a new idea that started glowing in my mind. You know that pendulums of wall clocks tend to synchronize their movement, I consider differing views as each a pendulum placed to another one. The beauty is then finding synchronicity between them. Have a great day my friend.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #10

#4
I commend your GINORMOUS heart, dear Ali \ud83d\udc1d Anani, Brand Ambassador @beBee! Which is only outsized by the depth and width of your mind! I am both grateful and relieved that you find this acceptable; now for Harvey! :) Having experienced many sides of the spiritual fence; from brutal, judgmental, faithful to loving, your pivotal response here is RESPECT. That is why I posted this; were we all like you and Harvey Lloyd, we could learn so much from each other! We are not children, and should be able to respect each others beliefs without offense. That said, those who do have faith in a higher being should be mindful of those that don't share their beliefs. Only with respect, we enhance our minds, not shut them down! Funny, I love to watch and hear men perform Salah. There is something very touching and beautiful in seeing men pray, that I don't get from women. Strange eh?

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #9

#3
haha...you laugh, but Harvey will have my guts for garters if I don't clarify! All true followers of Christianity (or any other faith, I expect) remain a 'work in progress' with the exception of maybe the Scientologists? They're just...ah...done. Still, anything at all is better than this: '“[God is] a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser , a misogynistic, homophobic racist, an infanticidal, genocidal, phillicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion''' Dreadful fella.... You're a sweetheart, Randall Burns!

Lada 🏡 Prkic

4 years ago #8

Lisa, I didn't expect my reply to Fay could be a cause of debate and resulted in writing a post by you. Also, I never think of myself as a woman with cojones.😀 I was raised to be tolerant but also to be honest and never afraid of asking questions. What I don't like are the people who are always polite but never say what they think actually (a trait of politicians). They never take a stand on a particular matter, and they are always somewhere in between. To me, it is not the definition of being tolerant. My opinion is that one's faith or religion should be a private matter. We witnessed, especially on social media, that many people advocate the opposite as seen in posts, memes, comment streams. If topics such as faith or religion are being brought to the public arena, then they become the subject of discussion. Therefore, I don't see why the Bible-quoting should be "undiscussable" topic that resulted in frustration. For me, it is never about being threatened by the faith of others. Just the opposite! But we are talking about enforcing one's beliefs on others, despite good intentions. To bring some humour to the discussion, as Ken did, I find some lessons from the Bible that made me giggle: "Better to live on a corner of the roof than to share a house with a quarrelsome wife" (Proverbs 21:9) "Worst of all wounds is that of the heart, worst of all evils is that of a woman" (Sirach 25:12) Lisa, thanks for your dedication. Admiration is mutual. 🤗

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #7

#2
Ah-em to that Cyndi wilkins; well said! I can relate to your parents. That said, if you'd ended up like me, I'd agree with your parents! :)

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #6

#1
Hysterical Ken Boddie!....love it! Religion is full of humor. I thought Scottish protestants thumped each other?

Ali Anani

4 years ago #5

#3
#3 Thank you dear Randall Burns. Finally, I read a comment by you. I have missed you greatly my friend and your interesting posts. I hold great respect for you. I truly mean it.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #4

This post which builds up more on the my discussions on my recent post "Implantation of Hope" than the post itself. I say this because the merits goes to the commenters than I. https://www.bebee.com/producer/@ali-anani/implantation-of-hope The topic of your post dear Lisa Vanderburg is thorny, but you handled it with empathy and understanding of others. As much as I am happy with your dedication and appreciation of my "little" mind, I feel the same towards you. I appreciate your mind. I shall reiterate here that there is a subtle difference between faith and religion, which you highlighted superbly in your own quotes.I ask myself if it is better to have religion, faith or BOTH? In all cases, I believe that without faith people shall not change because internal changes are what make us different. Is it the paint or the painter? Sometimes I find that religious people dogmatic in their views, which casts a scar on religion without intending to do so. I respect all religions and the believers as long as they hold mutual respect for other and even contradicting views. I keep my respect to their beliefs and they have the right to convince me without ever trying to enforce their beliefs on me. I thank you again dear Lisa for your handling this issue courageously and for differing with due respect for others even if they disagree with you.

Randall Burns

4 years ago #3

LMAO!!! OMG I loved this Lisa Vanderburg against each other, both intellectual giants. I'm not religious, but spiritual/philosophical; I've read the bible and while there are lessons to be learned I would not take it as "gospel". Harvey Lloyd , trust me buddy we ARE ALL a "work in progress".

Cyndi wilkins

4 years ago #2

Lisa Vanderburg...I've never been influenced one way or the other by any given religion...In fact, I think my parents quite often thought my lack of interest in following such beliefs would be my biggest obstacle in life...However, the good news for me is...from very early on, I became aware that the only expectations I was required to live up to were my own. That doesn't mean I balk at anyone expressing their religious faith...To each his own;-)

Ken Boddie

4 years ago #1

I am not a religious person, Lisa. Although I was forced at an early age to attend Sunday school, run by bible thumping Scottish protestants, the last time I was in church they tried to drown me and I haven’t been back since. Nevertheless I still have a rudimentary understanding of some of the contents of the bible, particularly in relation to automobiles. For example, Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden “in a Fury”, then “David’s Triumph was heard throughout the land”, and then “the apostles were all in one Accord”. Now before you dismiss my humour as sacrilegious, remember that Samson was the first comedian in the bible, as “he brought the house down”. 🤣😂🤣

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